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<!doctype html><html lang=en><head><title>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page</title><meta charset=utf-8><meta name=viewport content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1"><meta name=color-scheme content="light dark"><meta name=author content="Eric X. Liu"><meta name=description content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=fediverse:creator content><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="404 Page not found"><meta name=twitter:description content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta property="og:url" content="/404.html"><meta property="og:site_name" content="Eric X. Liu's Personal Page"><meta property="og:title" content="404 Page not found"><meta property="og:description" content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta property="og:locale" content="en"><meta property="og:type" content="website"><link rel=canonical href=/404.html><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-brands-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-regular-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-solid-900.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder.min.60f552a2c0452fcc0254c54f21c3e0728460c1ae85f97a9c35833a222ef8b884.css integrity="sha256-YPVSosBFL8wCVMVPIcPgcoRgwa6F+XqcNYM6Ii74uIQ=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder-dark.min.a00e6364bacbc8266ad1cc81230774a1397198f8cfb7bcba29b7d6fcb54ce57f.css integrity="sha256-oA5jZLrLyCZq0cyBIwd0oTlxmPjPt7y6KbfW/LVM5X8=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=icon type=image/svg+xml href=/images/favicon.svg sizes=any><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-32x32.png sizes=32x32><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-16x16.png sizes=16x16><link rel=apple-touch-icon href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=apple-touch-icon sizes=180x180 href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=manifest href=/site.webmanifest><link rel=mask-icon href=/images/safari-pinned-tab.svg color=#5bbad5></head><body class="preload-transitions colorscheme-auto"><div class=float-container><a id=dark-mode-toggle class=colorscheme-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-adjust fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></a></div><main class=wrapper><nav class=navigation><section class=container><a class=navigation-title href=/>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page
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<!doctype html><html lang=en><head><title>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page</title><meta charset=utf-8><meta name=viewport content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1"><meta name=color-scheme content="light dark"><meta name=author content="Eric X. Liu"><meta name=description content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="404 Page not found"><meta name=twitter:description content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta property="og:url" content="/404.html"><meta property="og:site_name" content="Eric X. Liu's Personal Page"><meta property="og:title" content="404 Page not found"><meta property="og:description" content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta property="og:locale" content="en"><meta property="og:type" content="website"><link rel=canonical href=/404.html><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-brands-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-regular-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-solid-900.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder.min.6445a802b9389c9660e1b07b724dcf5718b1065ed2d71b4eeaf981cc7cc5fc46.css integrity="sha256-ZEWoArk4nJZg4bB7ck3PVxixBl7S1xtO6vmBzHzF/EY=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder-dark.min.a00e6364bacbc8266ad1cc81230774a1397198f8cfb7bcba29b7d6fcb54ce57f.css integrity="sha256-oA5jZLrLyCZq0cyBIwd0oTlxmPjPt7y6KbfW/LVM5X8=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=icon type=image/svg+xml href=/images/favicon.svg sizes=any><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-32x32.png sizes=32x32><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-16x16.png sizes=16x16><link rel=apple-touch-icon href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=apple-touch-icon sizes=180x180 href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=manifest href=/site.webmanifest><link rel=mask-icon href=/images/safari-pinned-tab.svg color=#5bbad5></head><body class="preload-transitions colorscheme-auto"><div class=float-container><a id=dark-mode-toggle class=colorscheme-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-adjust fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></a></div><main class=wrapper><nav class=navigation><section class=container><a class=navigation-title href=/>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page
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<!doctype html><html lang=en><head><title>About · Eric X. Liu's Personal Page</title><meta charset=utf-8><meta name=viewport content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1"><meta name=color-scheme content="light dark"><meta name=author content="Eric X. Liu"><meta name=description content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=fediverse:creator content><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="About"><meta name=twitter:description content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta property="og:url" content="/about/"><meta property="og:site_name" content="Eric X. Liu's Personal Page"><meta property="og:title" content="About"><meta property="og:description" content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta property="og:locale" content="en"><meta property="og:type" content="article"><meta property="article:published_time" content="2018-06-01T07:13:52+00:00"><meta property="article:modified_time" content="2020-06-16T23:30:17-07:00"><link rel=canonical href=/about/><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-brands-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-regular-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-solid-900.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder.min.60f552a2c0452fcc0254c54f21c3e0728460c1ae85f97a9c35833a222ef8b884.css integrity="sha256-YPVSosBFL8wCVMVPIcPgcoRgwa6F+XqcNYM6Ii74uIQ=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder-dark.min.a00e6364bacbc8266ad1cc81230774a1397198f8cfb7bcba29b7d6fcb54ce57f.css integrity="sha256-oA5jZLrLyCZq0cyBIwd0oTlxmPjPt7y6KbfW/LVM5X8=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=icon type=image/svg+xml href=/images/favicon.svg sizes=any><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-32x32.png sizes=32x32><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-16x16.png sizes=16x16><link rel=apple-touch-icon href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=apple-touch-icon sizes=180x180 href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=manifest href=/site.webmanifest><link rel=mask-icon href=/images/safari-pinned-tab.svg color=#5bbad5></head><body class="preload-transitions colorscheme-auto"><div class=float-container><a id=dark-mode-toggle class=colorscheme-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-adjust fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></a></div><main class=wrapper><nav class=navigation><section class=container><a class=navigation-title href=/>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page
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Eric X. Liu
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<!doctype html><html lang=en><head><title>Categories · Eric X. Liu's Personal Page</title><meta charset=utf-8><meta name=viewport content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1"><meta name=color-scheme content="light dark"><meta name=author content="Eric X. Liu"><meta name=description content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=fediverse:creator content><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="Categories"><meta name=twitter:description content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta property="og:url" content="/categories/"><meta property="og:site_name" content="Eric X. Liu's Personal Page"><meta property="og:title" content="Categories"><meta property="og:description" content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta property="og:locale" content="en"><meta property="og:type" content="website"><link rel=canonical href=/categories/><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-brands-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-regular-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-solid-900.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder.min.60f552a2c0452fcc0254c54f21c3e0728460c1ae85f97a9c35833a222ef8b884.css integrity="sha256-YPVSosBFL8wCVMVPIcPgcoRgwa6F+XqcNYM6Ii74uIQ=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder-dark.min.a00e6364bacbc8266ad1cc81230774a1397198f8cfb7bcba29b7d6fcb54ce57f.css integrity="sha256-oA5jZLrLyCZq0cyBIwd0oTlxmPjPt7y6KbfW/LVM5X8=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=icon type=image/svg+xml href=/images/favicon.svg sizes=any><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-32x32.png sizes=32x32><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-16x16.png sizes=16x16><link rel=apple-touch-icon href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=apple-touch-icon sizes=180x180 href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=manifest href=/site.webmanifest><link rel=mask-icon href=/images/safari-pinned-tab.svg color=#5bbad5><link rel=alternate type=application/rss+xml href=/categories/index.xml title="Eric X. Liu's Personal Page"></head><body class="preload-transitions colorscheme-auto"><div class=float-container><a id=dark-mode-toggle class=colorscheme-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-adjust fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></a></div><main class=wrapper><nav class=navigation><section class=container><a class=navigation-title href=/>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page
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<!doctype html><html lang=en><head><title>Categories · Eric X. Liu's Personal Page</title><meta charset=utf-8><meta name=viewport content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1"><meta name=color-scheme content="light dark"><meta name=author content="Eric X. Liu"><meta name=description content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="Categories"><meta name=twitter:description content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta property="og:url" content="/categories/"><meta property="og:site_name" content="Eric X. Liu's Personal Page"><meta property="og:title" content="Categories"><meta property="og:description" content="Eric X. Liu - Software & Performance Engineer at Google. Sharing insights about software engineering, performance optimization, tech industry experiences, mountain biking adventures, Jeep overlanding, and outdoor activities."><meta property="og:locale" content="en"><meta property="og:type" content="website"><link rel=canonical href=/categories/><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-brands-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-regular-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-solid-900.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder.min.6445a802b9389c9660e1b07b724dcf5718b1065ed2d71b4eeaf981cc7cc5fc46.css integrity="sha256-ZEWoArk4nJZg4bB7ck3PVxixBl7S1xtO6vmBzHzF/EY=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder-dark.min.a00e6364bacbc8266ad1cc81230774a1397198f8cfb7bcba29b7d6fcb54ce57f.css integrity="sha256-oA5jZLrLyCZq0cyBIwd0oTlxmPjPt7y6KbfW/LVM5X8=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=icon type=image/svg+xml href=/images/favicon.svg sizes=any><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-32x32.png sizes=32x32><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-16x16.png sizes=16x16><link rel=apple-touch-icon href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=apple-touch-icon sizes=180x180 href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=manifest href=/site.webmanifest><link rel=mask-icon href=/images/safari-pinned-tab.svg color=#5bbad5><link rel=alternate type=application/rss+xml href=/categories/index.xml title="Eric X. Liu's Personal Page"></head><body class="preload-transitions colorscheme-auto"><div class=float-container><a id=dark-mode-toggle class=colorscheme-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-adjust fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></a></div><main class=wrapper><nav class=navigation><section class=container><a class=navigation-title href=/>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page
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2016 -
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2025
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Eric X. Liu
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<!doctype html><html lang=en><head><title>A Deep Dive into PPO for Language Models · Eric X. Liu's Personal Page</title><meta charset=utf-8><meta name=viewport content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1"><meta name=color-scheme content="light dark"><meta name=author content="Eric X. Liu"><meta name=description content="Large Language Models (LLMs) have demonstrated astonishing capabilities, but out-of-the-box, they are simply powerful text predictors. They don’t inherently understand what makes a response helpful, harmless, or aligned with human values. The technique that has proven most effective at bridging this gap is Reinforcement Learning from Human Feedback (RLHF), and at its heart lies a powerful algorithm: Proximal Policy Optimization (PPO).
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You may have seen diagrams like the one below, which outlines the RLHF training process. It can look intimidating, with a web of interconnected models, losses, and data flows."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=fediverse:creator content><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="A Deep Dive into PPO for Language Models"><meta name=twitter:description content="Large Language Models (LLMs) have demonstrated astonishing capabilities, but out-of-the-box, they are simply powerful text predictors. They don’t inherently understand what makes a response helpful, harmless, or aligned with human values. The technique that has proven most effective at bridging this gap is Reinforcement Learning from Human Feedback (RLHF), and at its heart lies a powerful algorithm: Proximal Policy Optimization (PPO).
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You may have seen diagrams like the one below, which outlines the RLHF training process. It can look intimidating, with a web of interconnected models, losses, and data flows."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="A Deep Dive into PPO for Language Models"><meta name=twitter:description content="Large Language Models (LLMs) have demonstrated astonishing capabilities, but out-of-the-box, they are simply powerful text predictors. They don’t inherently understand what makes a response helpful, harmless, or aligned with human values. The technique that has proven most effective at bridging this gap is Reinforcement Learning from Human Feedback (RLHF), and at its heart lies a powerful algorithm: Proximal Policy Optimization (PPO).
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You may have seen diagrams like the one below, which outlines the RLHF training process. It can look intimidating, with a web of interconnected models, losses, and data flows."><meta property="og:url" content="/posts/a-deep-dive-into-ppo-for-language-models/"><meta property="og:site_name" content="Eric X. Liu's Personal Page"><meta property="og:title" content="A Deep Dive into PPO for Language Models"><meta property="og:description" content="Large Language Models (LLMs) have demonstrated astonishing capabilities, but out-of-the-box, they are simply powerful text predictors. They don’t inherently understand what makes a response helpful, harmless, or aligned with human values. The technique that has proven most effective at bridging this gap is Reinforcement Learning from Human Feedback (RLHF), and at its heart lies a powerful algorithm: Proximal Policy Optimization (PPO).
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You may have seen diagrams like the one below, which outlines the RLHF training process. It can look intimidating, with a web of interconnected models, losses, and data flows."><meta property="og:locale" content="en"><meta property="og:type" content="article"><meta property="article:section" content="posts"><meta property="article:published_time" content="2025-08-02T00:00:00+00:00"><meta property="article:modified_time" content="2025-08-03T03:28:39+00:00"><link rel=canonical href=/posts/a-deep-dive-into-ppo-for-language-models/><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-brands-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-regular-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-solid-900.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder.min.60f552a2c0452fcc0254c54f21c3e0728460c1ae85f97a9c35833a222ef8b884.css integrity="sha256-YPVSosBFL8wCVMVPIcPgcoRgwa6F+XqcNYM6Ii74uIQ=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder-dark.min.a00e6364bacbc8266ad1cc81230774a1397198f8cfb7bcba29b7d6fcb54ce57f.css integrity="sha256-oA5jZLrLyCZq0cyBIwd0oTlxmPjPt7y6KbfW/LVM5X8=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=icon type=image/svg+xml href=/images/favicon.svg sizes=any><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-32x32.png sizes=32x32><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-16x16.png sizes=16x16><link rel=apple-touch-icon href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=apple-touch-icon sizes=180x180 href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=manifest href=/site.webmanifest><link rel=mask-icon href=/images/safari-pinned-tab.svg color=#5bbad5></head><body class="preload-transitions colorscheme-auto"><div class=float-container><a id=dark-mode-toggle class=colorscheme-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-adjust fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></a></div><main class=wrapper><nav class=navigation><section class=container><a class=navigation-title href=/>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page
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You may have seen diagrams like the one below, which outlines the RLHF training process. It can look intimidating, with a web of interconnected models, losses, and data flows."><meta property="og:locale" content="en"><meta property="og:type" content="article"><meta property="article:section" content="posts"><meta property="article:published_time" content="2025-08-02T00:00:00+00:00"><meta property="article:modified_time" content="2025-08-03T03:28:39+00:00"><link rel=canonical href=/posts/a-deep-dive-into-ppo-for-language-models/><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-brands-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-regular-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-solid-900.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder.min.6445a802b9389c9660e1b07b724dcf5718b1065ed2d71b4eeaf981cc7cc5fc46.css integrity="sha256-ZEWoArk4nJZg4bB7ck3PVxixBl7S1xtO6vmBzHzF/EY=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder-dark.min.a00e6364bacbc8266ad1cc81230774a1397198f8cfb7bcba29b7d6fcb54ce57f.css integrity="sha256-oA5jZLrLyCZq0cyBIwd0oTlxmPjPt7y6KbfW/LVM5X8=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=icon type=image/svg+xml href=/images/favicon.svg sizes=any><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-32x32.png sizes=32x32><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-16x16.png sizes=16x16><link rel=apple-touch-icon href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=apple-touch-icon sizes=180x180 href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=manifest href=/site.webmanifest><link rel=mask-icon href=/images/safari-pinned-tab.svg color=#5bbad5></head><body class="preload-transitions colorscheme-auto"><div class=float-container><a id=dark-mode-toggle class=colorscheme-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-adjust fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></a></div><main class=wrapper><nav class=navigation><section class=container><a class=navigation-title href=/>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page
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<label class="menu-button float-right" for=menu-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-bars fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></label><ul class=navigation-list><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=/posts/>Posts</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://chat.ericxliu.me>Chat</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://git.ericxliu.me/user/oauth2/Authenitk>Git</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://coder.ericxliu.me/api/v2/users/oidc/callback>Coder</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://rss.ericxliu.me/oauth2/oidc/redirect>RSS</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=/>|</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://sso.ericxliu.me>Sign in</a></li></ul></section></nav><div class=content><section class="container post"><article><header><div class=post-title><h1 class=title><a class=title-link href=/posts/a-deep-dive-into-ppo-for-language-models/>A Deep Dive into PPO for Language Models</a></h1></div><div class=post-meta><div class=date><span class=posted-on><i class="fa-solid fa-calendar" aria-hidden=true></i>
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<time datetime=2025-08-02T00:00:00Z>August 2, 2025
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@@ -19,8 +19,8 @@ where <code>δ_t = r_t + γV(s_{t+1}) - V(s_t)</code></p><ul><li><strong>γ (gam
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<a class=heading-link href=#avoiding-amnesia-the-pretraining-loss><i class="fa-solid fa-link" aria-hidden=true title="Link to heading"></i>
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<span class=sr-only>Link to heading</span></a></h3><p>There’s one final problem. If we only optimize for the PPO loss, the model might learn to “hack” the reward model by generating repetitive or nonsensical text that gets a high score. In doing so, it could suffer from <strong>catastrophic forgetting</strong>, losing its fundamental grasp of grammar and facts.</p><p>To prevent this, we introduce a second loss term. As seen in the diagram, we mix in data from the original <strong>Pretraining Data</strong> (or the dataset used for Supervised Fine-Tuning). We calculate a standard next-token prediction loss (<code>LM Loss</code>) on this high-quality data.</p><p>The final loss for the Actor is a combination of both objectives:</p><p><strong>Total Loss = Loss_PPO + <code>λ_ptx</code> * Loss_LM</strong></p><p>This brilliantly balances two goals:</p><ol><li>The <code>Loss_PPO</code> pushes the model towards behaviors that align with human preferences.</li><li>The <code>Loss_LM</code> acts as a regularizer, pulling the model back towards its core language capabilities and preventing it from drifting into gibberish.</li></ol><h3 id=the-full-training-loop>The Full Training Loop
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<a class=heading-link href=#the-full-training-loop><i class="fa-solid fa-link" aria-hidden=true title="Link to heading"></i>
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<span class=sr-only>Link to heading</span></a></h3><p>Now, we can assemble the entire process into a clear, iterative loop:</p><ol><li><strong>Collect</strong>: The current Actor policy <code>π_k</code> generates responses to a batch of prompts. These experiences—<code>(state, action, probability, reward, value)</code>—are stored in an <strong>Experience Buffer</strong>.</li><li><strong>Calculate</strong>: Once the buffer is full, we use the collected data to compute the advantage estimates <code>Â_t</code> for every single token-generation step.</li><li><strong>Optimize</strong>: For a few epochs, we repeatedly sample mini-batches from the buffer and update the Actor and Critic models. The Actor is updated using the combined <code>PPO-clip Loss</code> and <code>LM Loss</code>. The Critic is updated to improve its value predictions.</li><li><strong>Flush and Repeat</strong>: After the optimization phase, the entire experience buffer is discarded. The data is now “stale” because our policy has changed. The newly updated policy <code>π_{k+1}</code> becomes the new Actor, and we return to step 1 to collect fresh data.</li></ol><p>This cycle of collection and optimization allows the language model to gradually and safely steer its behavior towards human-defined goals, creating the helpful and aligned AI assistants we interact with today.</p><hr><p><strong>References:</strong></p><ol><li>Schulman, J., Wolski, F., Dhariwal, P., Radford, A., & Klimov, O. (2017). <em>Proximal Policy Optimization Algorithms</em>. arXiv preprint arXiv:1707.06347.</li><li>Schulman, J., Moritz, P., Levine, S., Jordan, M., & Abbeel, P. (2015). <em>High-Dimensional Continuous Control Using Generalized Advantage Estimation</em>. arXiv preprint arXiv:1506.02438.</li><li>Ouyang, L., et al. (2022). <em>Training language models to follow instructions with human feedback</em>. Advances in Neural Information Processing Systems 35.</li></ol></div><footer></footer></article></section></div><footer class=footer><section class=container>©
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<span class=sr-only>Link to heading</span></a></h3><p>Now, we can assemble the entire process into a clear, iterative loop:</p><ol><li><strong>Collect</strong>: The current Actor policy <code>π_k</code> generates responses to a batch of prompts. These experiences—<code>(state, action, probability, reward, value)</code>—are stored in an <strong>Experience Buffer</strong>.</li><li><strong>Calculate</strong>: Once the buffer is full, we use the collected data to compute the advantage estimates <code>Â_t</code> for every single token-generation step.</li><li><strong>Optimize</strong>: For a few epochs, we repeatedly sample mini-batches from the buffer and update the Actor and Critic models. The Actor is updated using the combined <code>PPO-clip Loss</code> and <code>LM Loss</code>. The Critic is updated to improve its value predictions.</li><li><strong>Flush and Repeat</strong>: After the optimization phase, the entire experience buffer is discarded. The data is now “stale” because our policy has changed. The newly updated policy <code>π_{k+1}</code> becomes the new Actor, and we return to step 1 to collect fresh data.</li></ol><p>This cycle of collection and optimization allows the language model to gradually and safely steer its behavior towards human-defined goals, creating the helpful and aligned AI assistants we interact with today.</p><hr><p><strong>References:</strong></p><ol><li>Schulman, J., Wolski, F., Dhariwal, P., Radford, A., & Klimov, O. (2017). <em>Proximal Policy Optimization Algorithms</em>. arXiv preprint arXiv:1707.06347.</li><li>Schulman, J., Moritz, P., Levine, S., Jordan, M., & Abbeel, P. (2015). <em>High-Dimensional Continuous Control Using Generalized Advantage Estimation</em>. arXiv preprint arXiv:1506.02438.</li><li>Ouyang, L., et al. (2022). <em>Training language models to follow instructions with human feedback</em>. Advances in Neural Information Processing Systems 35.</li></ol></div><footer><div id=disqus_thread></div><script>window.disqus_config=function(){},function(){if(["localhost","127.0.0.1"].indexOf(window.location.hostname)!=-1){document.getElementById("disqus_thread").innerHTML="Disqus comments not available by default when the website is previewed locally.";return}var t=document,e=t.createElement("script");e.async=!0,e.src="//ericxliu-me.disqus.com/embed.js",e.setAttribute("data-timestamp",+new Date),(t.head||t.body).appendChild(e)}(),document.addEventListener("themeChanged",function(){document.readyState=="complete"&&DISQUS.reset({reload:!0,config:disqus_config})})</script></footer></article></section></div><footer class=footer><section class=container>©
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<!doctype html><html lang=en><head><title>Mastering Your Breville Barista Pro: The Ultimate Guide to Dialing In Espresso · Eric X. Liu's Personal Page</title><meta charset=utf-8><meta name=viewport content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1"><meta name=color-scheme content="light dark"><meta name=author content="Eric X. Liu"><meta name=description content="Are you ready to transform your home espresso game from good to genuinely great? The Breville Barista Pro is a fantastic machine, but unlocking its full potential requires understanding a few key principles. This guide will walk you through the systematic process of dialing in your espresso, ensuring every shot is delicious and repeatable.
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Our overarching philosophy is simple: isolate and change only one variable at a time. While numbers are crucial, your palate is the ultimate judge. Dose, ratio, and time are interconnected, but your grind size is your most powerful lever."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=fediverse:creator content><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="Mastering Your Breville Barista Pro: The Ultimate Guide to Dialing In Espresso"><meta name=twitter:description content="Are you ready to transform your home espresso game from good to genuinely great? The Breville Barista Pro is a fantastic machine, but unlocking its full potential requires understanding a few key principles. This guide will walk you through the systematic process of dialing in your espresso, ensuring every shot is delicious and repeatable.
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Our overarching philosophy is simple: isolate and change only one variable at a time. While numbers are crucial, your palate is the ultimate judge. Dose, ratio, and time are interconnected, but your grind size is your most powerful lever."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="Mastering Your Breville Barista Pro: The Ultimate Guide to Dialing In Espresso"><meta name=twitter:description content="Are you ready to transform your home espresso game from good to genuinely great? The Breville Barista Pro is a fantastic machine, but unlocking its full potential requires understanding a few key principles. This guide will walk you through the systematic process of dialing in your espresso, ensuring every shot is delicious and repeatable.
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<label class="menu-button float-right" for=menu-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-bars fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></label><ul class=navigation-list><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=/posts/>Posts</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://chat.ericxliu.me>Chat</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://git.ericxliu.me/user/oauth2/Authenitk>Git</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://coder.ericxliu.me/api/v2/users/oidc/callback>Coder</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://rss.ericxliu.me/oauth2/oidc/redirect>RSS</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=/>|</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://sso.ericxliu.me>Sign in</a></li></ul></section></nav><div class=content><section class="container post"><article><header><div class=post-title><h1 class=title><a class=title-link href=/posts/espresso-theory-application-a-guide-for-the-breville-barista-pro/>Mastering Your Breville Barista Pro: The Ultimate Guide to Dialing In Espresso</a></h1></div><div class=post-meta><div class=date><span class=posted-on><i class="fa-solid fa-calendar" aria-hidden=true></i>
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<time datetime=2025-05-01T00:00:00Z>May 1, 2025
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@@ -16,8 +16,8 @@ Our overarching philosophy is simple: isolate and change only one variable at a
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<a class=heading-link href=#part-4-the-primary-control--grind-setting><i class="fa-solid fa-link" aria-hidden=true title="Link to heading"></i>
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<span class=sr-only>Link to heading</span></a></h3><p>This is where the magic (and sometimes frustration) happens. Grind size is your main tool for controlling the resistance of the coffee puck, which directly dictates your brew time.</p><p><strong>The Dual Impact of Grinding Finer:</strong></p><ol><li><strong>Increases surface area:</strong> Allows for more efficient flavor extraction.</li><li><strong>Increases resistance:</strong> Slows down water flow and increases contact time.</li></ol><p><strong>The Risk of Grinding Too Fine (Channeling):</strong></p><p>If the grind is too fine, the puck becomes so dense that high-pressure water can’t flow evenly. Instead, it “breaks” the puck and punches an easy path (a channel) through a weak spot. This results in a disastrous shot that is simultaneously:</p><ul><li><strong>Under-extracted:</strong> Most of the coffee is bypassed.</li><li><strong>Over-extracted:</strong> The water that does flow blasts through the channel, extracting harsh, bitter compounds.</li><li><strong>The Taste:</strong> A channeled shot tastes hollow, weak, sour, <em>and</em> bitter all at once.</li></ul><p><strong>The Goal:</strong> You want to <strong>grind as fine as you possibly can <em>without</em> causing significant channeling</strong>. This is the sweet spot for maximizing surface area and resistance for high, even extraction.</p><p><strong>Grind Retention (Purging):</strong> Most grinders retain some old grounds. When you change your grind setting, always purge a few grams of coffee to ensure your dose is entirely at the new setting.</p><p><strong>Application for Your Breville Barista Pro:</strong></p><ul><li><strong>Grinder Mechanism:</strong> The “Grind Amount” dial controls the <strong>TIME</strong> the grinder runs, not the weight. When you adjust the fineness, you <strong>must</strong> re-adjust the grind time to ensure you are still getting your target 18g dose.</li><li><strong>Tackling Channeling:</strong> The Barista Pro is prone to channeling. To fight this, focus on excellent <strong>puck prep</strong>: use a WDT (Weiss Distribution Technique) tool to break up clumps and evenly distribute the grounds before tamping levelly.</li></ul><hr><h3 id=the-complete-dialing-in-workflow><strong>The Complete Dialing-In Workflow</strong>
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<a class=heading-link href=#the-complete-dialing-in-workflow><i class="fa-solid fa-link" aria-hidden=true title="Link to heading"></i>
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<span class=sr-only>Link to heading</span></a></h3><p>This systematic process will get you to a delicious shot from your Breville Barista Pro efficiently:</p><ol><li><strong>Set Your Constants:</strong><ul><li><strong>Dose:</strong> <strong>18g</strong>.</li><li><strong>Ratio:</strong> <strong>1:2</strong> (meaning a <strong>Yield</strong> of <strong>36g</strong>).</li><li><strong>Pre-infusion:</strong> Use a consistent method (e.g., manual 8-second hold).</li></ul></li><li><strong>Make an Initial Grind:</strong><ul><li>Set the grinder to a starting point of <strong>15</strong>.</li><li>Adjust the grind <strong>time</strong> until the grinder dispenses exactly 18g.</li></ul></li><li><strong>Pull the First Shot:</strong><ul><li>Brew manually, stopping at <strong>36g</strong> of liquid in the cup. Note the <strong>total brew time</strong>.</li></ul></li><li><strong>Taste and Diagnose:</strong><ul><li><strong>Fast & Sour? (<25s):</strong> Grind is too coarse.</li><li><strong>Slow & Bitter? (>32s):</strong> Grind is too fine.</li></ul></li><li><strong>Make ONE Adjustment - THE GRIND SIZE:</strong><ul><li>If fast/sour, adjust the grind <strong>finer</strong> (e.g., from 15 down to 13).</li><li>If slow/bitter, adjust the grind <strong>coarser</strong> (e.g., from 15 up to 17).</li></ul></li><li><strong>Re-adjust and Repeat:</strong><ul><li>After changing the grind setting, <strong>purge</strong> a small amount of coffee.</li><li>Re-weigh your next dose and <strong>adjust the grind time</strong> to get back to exactly 18g.</li><li>Pull another 36g shot. Repeat this process until your shot tastes balanced and the time falls roughly between <strong>25-32 seconds</strong>.</li></ul></li></ol><p>Happy brewing! With patience and this systematic approach, you’ll be pulling consistently delicious espresso shots from your Breville Barista Pro in no time.</p></div><footer></footer></article></section></div><footer class=footer><section class=container>©
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<span class=sr-only>Link to heading</span></a></h3><p>This systematic process will get you to a delicious shot from your Breville Barista Pro efficiently:</p><ol><li><strong>Set Your Constants:</strong><ul><li><strong>Dose:</strong> <strong>18g</strong>.</li><li><strong>Ratio:</strong> <strong>1:2</strong> (meaning a <strong>Yield</strong> of <strong>36g</strong>).</li><li><strong>Pre-infusion:</strong> Use a consistent method (e.g., manual 8-second hold).</li></ul></li><li><strong>Make an Initial Grind:</strong><ul><li>Set the grinder to a starting point of <strong>15</strong>.</li><li>Adjust the grind <strong>time</strong> until the grinder dispenses exactly 18g.</li></ul></li><li><strong>Pull the First Shot:</strong><ul><li>Brew manually, stopping at <strong>36g</strong> of liquid in the cup. Note the <strong>total brew time</strong>.</li></ul></li><li><strong>Taste and Diagnose:</strong><ul><li><strong>Fast & Sour? (<25s):</strong> Grind is too coarse.</li><li><strong>Slow & Bitter? (>32s):</strong> Grind is too fine.</li></ul></li><li><strong>Make ONE Adjustment - THE GRIND SIZE:</strong><ul><li>If fast/sour, adjust the grind <strong>finer</strong> (e.g., from 15 down to 13).</li><li>If slow/bitter, adjust the grind <strong>coarser</strong> (e.g., from 15 up to 17).</li></ul></li><li><strong>Re-adjust and Repeat:</strong><ul><li>After changing the grind setting, <strong>purge</strong> a small amount of coffee.</li><li>Re-weigh your next dose and <strong>adjust the grind time</strong> to get back to exactly 18g.</li><li>Pull another 36g shot. Repeat this process until your shot tastes balanced and the time falls roughly between <strong>25-32 seconds</strong>.</li></ul></li></ol><p>Happy brewing! With patience and this systematic approach, you’ll be pulling consistently delicious espresso shots from your Breville Barista Pro in no time.</p></div><footer><div id=disqus_thread></div><script>window.disqus_config=function(){},function(){if(["localhost","127.0.0.1"].indexOf(window.location.hostname)!=-1){document.getElementById("disqus_thread").innerHTML="Disqus comments not available by default when the website is previewed locally.";return}var t=document,e=t.createElement("script");e.async=!0,e.src="//ericxliu-me.disqus.com/embed.js",e.setAttribute("data-timestamp",+new Date),(t.head||t.body).appendChild(e)}(),document.addEventListener("themeChanged",function(){document.readyState=="complete"&&DISQUS.reset({reload:!0,config:disqus_config})})</script></footer></article></section></div><footer class=footer><section class=container>©
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The Problem:
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Many routing mechanisms, especially “Top-K routing,” involve a discrete, hard selection process. A common function is KeepTopK(v, k), which selects the top k scoring elements from a vector v and sets others to (-\infty) or (0)."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=fediverse:creator content><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="Mixture-of-Experts (MoE) Models Challenges & Solutions in Practice"><meta name=twitter:description content="Mixture-of-Experts (MoEs) are neural network architectures that allow different parts of the model (called “experts”) to specialize in different types of inputs. A “gating network” or “router” learns to dispatch each input (or “token”) to a subset of these experts. While powerful for scaling models, MoEs introduce several practical challenges.
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Many routing mechanisms, especially “Top-K routing,” involve a discrete, hard selection process. A common function is KeepTopK(v, k), which selects the top k scoring elements from a vector v and sets others to (-\infty) or (0)."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="Mixture-of-Experts (MoE) Models Challenges & Solutions in Practice"><meta name=twitter:description content="Mixture-of-Experts (MoEs) are neural network architectures that allow different parts of the model (called “experts”) to specialize in different types of inputs. A “gating network” or “router” learns to dispatch each input (or “token”) to a subset of these experts. While powerful for scaling models, MoEs introduce several practical challenges.
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1. Challenge: Non-Differentiability of Routing Functions Link to heading The Problem: Many routing mechanisms, especially “Top-K routing,” involve a discrete, hard selection process. A common function is KeepTopK(v, k), which selects the top k scoring elements from a vector v and sets others to (-\infty) or (0)."><meta property="og:url" content="/posts/mixture-of-experts-moe-models-challenges-solutions-in-practice/"><meta property="og:site_name" content="Eric X. Liu's Personal Page"><meta property="og:title" content="Mixture-of-Experts (MoE) Models Challenges & Solutions in Practice"><meta property="og:description" content="Mixture-of-Experts (MoEs) are neural network architectures that allow different parts of the model (called “experts”) to specialize in different types of inputs. A “gating network” or “router” learns to dispatch each input (or “token”) to a subset of these experts. While powerful for scaling models, MoEs introduce several practical challenges.
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1. Challenge: Non-Differentiability of Routing Functions Link to heading The Problem: Many routing mechanisms, especially “Top-K routing,” involve a discrete, hard selection process. A common function is KeepTopK(v, k), which selects the top k scoring elements from a vector v and sets others to (-\infty) or (0)."><meta property="og:locale" content="en"><meta property="og:type" content="article"><meta property="article:section" content="posts"><meta property="article:published_time" content="2025-07-02T00:00:00+00:00"><meta property="article:modified_time" content="2025-08-03T03:49:59+00:00"><link rel=canonical href=/posts/mixture-of-experts-moe-models-challenges-solutions-in-practice/><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-brands-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-regular-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-solid-900.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder.min.60f552a2c0452fcc0254c54f21c3e0728460c1ae85f97a9c35833a222ef8b884.css integrity="sha256-YPVSosBFL8wCVMVPIcPgcoRgwa6F+XqcNYM6Ii74uIQ=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder-dark.min.a00e6364bacbc8266ad1cc81230774a1397198f8cfb7bcba29b7d6fcb54ce57f.css integrity="sha256-oA5jZLrLyCZq0cyBIwd0oTlxmPjPt7y6KbfW/LVM5X8=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=icon type=image/svg+xml href=/images/favicon.svg sizes=any><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-32x32.png sizes=32x32><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-16x16.png sizes=16x16><link rel=apple-touch-icon href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=apple-touch-icon sizes=180x180 href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=manifest href=/site.webmanifest><link rel=mask-icon href=/images/safari-pinned-tab.svg color=#5bbad5></head><body class="preload-transitions colorscheme-auto"><div class=float-container><a id=dark-mode-toggle class=colorscheme-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-adjust fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></a></div><main class=wrapper><nav class=navigation><section class=container><a class=navigation-title href=/>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page
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1. Challenge: Non-Differentiability of Routing Functions Link to heading The Problem: Many routing mechanisms, especially “Top-K routing,” involve a discrete, hard selection process. A common function is KeepTopK(v, k), which selects the top k scoring elements from a vector v and sets others to (-\infty) or (0)."><meta property="og:locale" content="en"><meta property="og:type" content="article"><meta property="article:section" content="posts"><meta property="article:published_time" content="2025-07-02T00:00:00+00:00"><meta property="article:modified_time" content="2025-08-03T03:49:59+00:00"><link rel=canonical href=/posts/mixture-of-experts-moe-models-challenges-solutions-in-practice/><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-brands-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-regular-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-solid-900.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder.min.6445a802b9389c9660e1b07b724dcf5718b1065ed2d71b4eeaf981cc7cc5fc46.css integrity="sha256-ZEWoArk4nJZg4bB7ck3PVxixBl7S1xtO6vmBzHzF/EY=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder-dark.min.a00e6364bacbc8266ad1cc81230774a1397198f8cfb7bcba29b7d6fcb54ce57f.css integrity="sha256-oA5jZLrLyCZq0cyBIwd0oTlxmPjPt7y6KbfW/LVM5X8=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=icon type=image/svg+xml href=/images/favicon.svg sizes=any><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-32x32.png sizes=32x32><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-16x16.png sizes=16x16><link rel=apple-touch-icon href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=apple-touch-icon sizes=180x180 href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=manifest href=/site.webmanifest><link rel=mask-icon href=/images/safari-pinned-tab.svg color=#5bbad5></head><body class="preload-transitions colorscheme-auto"><div class=float-container><a id=dark-mode-toggle class=colorscheme-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-adjust fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></a></div><main class=wrapper><nav class=navigation><section class=container><a class=navigation-title href=/>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page
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<label class="menu-button float-right" for=menu-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-bars fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></label><ul class=navigation-list><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=/posts/>Posts</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://chat.ericxliu.me>Chat</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://git.ericxliu.me/user/oauth2/Authenitk>Git</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://coder.ericxliu.me/api/v2/users/oidc/callback>Coder</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://rss.ericxliu.me/oauth2/oidc/redirect>RSS</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=/>|</a></li><li class=navigation-item><a class=navigation-link href=https://sso.ericxliu.me>Sign in</a></li></ul></section></nav><div class=content><section class="container post"><article><header><div class=post-title><h1 class=title><a class=title-link href=/posts/mixture-of-experts-moe-models-challenges-solutions-in-practice/>Mixture-of-Experts (MoE) Models Challenges & Solutions in Practice</a></h1></div><div class=post-meta><div class=date><span class=posted-on><i class="fa-solid fa-calendar" aria-hidden=true></i>
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<time datetime=2025-07-02T00:00:00Z>July 2, 2025
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@@ -40,8 +40,8 @@ Even with this loss, an expert can remain imbalanced if it’s consistently
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<span class=sr-only>Link to heading</span></a></h3><p><strong>The Problem:</strong>
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Sparse MoE models, despite only activating a few experts per token, possess a very large total number of parameters. When fine-tuning these models on <strong>smaller datasets</strong>, they are highly prone to <strong>overfitting</strong>. The model’s vast capacity allows it to memorize the limited fine-tuning data, leading to poor generalization performance on unseen validation data. This is evident when training loss continues to decrease, but validation loss stagnates or increases.</p><p><strong>Solutions:</strong></p><ul><li><p><strong>Zoph et al. Solution – Fine-tune non-MoE MLPs:</strong></p><ul><li>This strategy involves freezing a portion of the MoE model’s parameters during fine-tuning, specifically the large expert weights.</li><li>Instead, only the “non-MoE” parameters (e.g., attention layers, adapter layers, or the gating network itself) are updated.</li><li>This reduces the effective number of trainable parameters during fine-tuning, thereby mitigating the risk of overfitting on small datasets. It assumes the experts are already well-pre-trained for general tasks.</li></ul></li><li><p><strong>DeepSeek Solution – Use Lots of Data (1.4M SFT):</strong></p><ul><li>This approach tackles the problem by providing the model with a very large and diverse dataset for Supervised Fine-Tuning (SFT).</li><li>With abundant data (e.g., 1.4 million examples covering a wide range of tasks and languages), the model’s large capacity can be effectively utilized for specialized learning rather than memorization. The diversity and volume of data prevent individual experts from overfitting to specific examples.</li></ul></li></ul><p><strong>Conclusion:</strong>
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MoE models offer significant advantages in terms of model capacity and computational efficiency, but their unique sparse activation pattern introduces challenges in training and fine-tuning. Overcoming non-differentiability in routing and ensuring balanced expert utilization are crucial for effective pre-training. During fine-tuning, managing the model’s vast parameter count to prevent overfitting on smaller datasets requires either strategic parameter freezing or access to very large and diverse fine-tuning data.
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The <strong>Top-K routing</strong> mechanism, as illustrated in the provided image, is a core component in many modern Mixture-of-Experts (MoE) models. It involves selecting a fixed number (<code>K</code>) of experts for each input based on relevance scores.</p><hr><p><strong>Traditional Top-K (Deterministic Selection):</strong></p><ul><li><strong>How it works:</strong><ol><li>Calculate relevance scores (<code>s_{i,t}</code>) for each expert <code>i</code> and input <code>t</code>.</li><li>Identify the <code>K</code> experts with the highest scores.</li><li>Experts <em>within</em> the Top-K are assigned their scores (<code>g_{i,t} = s_{i,t}</code>).</li><li>Experts <em>outside</em> the Top-K are assigned a score of <code>0</code> (<code>g_{i,t} = 0</code>).</li><li>The output is a weighted sum of the selected experts’ outputs.</li></ol></li><li><strong>Pros:</strong> Predictable, deterministic, selects the “best” experts based on current scores.</li><li><strong>Cons:</strong> Can lead to expert imbalance, where a few popular experts are always chosen, starving others of training.</li></ul><p><strong>Alternative: Sampling from Softmax (Probabilistic Selection):</strong></p><ul><li><strong>How it works:</strong><ol><li>Calculate relevance scores (<code>s_{i,t}</code>) which are treated as probabilities (after softmax).</li><li><strong>Randomly sample</strong> <code>K</code> unique expert indices from the distribution defined by these probabilities.</li><li>Selected experts contribute; unselected experts do not.</li></ol></li><li><strong>Why it’s suggested:</strong><ul><li><strong>Load Balancing:</strong> Prevents expert collapse by ensuring all experts get a chance to be selected, even those with slightly lower scores. This promotes more even training across the entire expert pool.</li><li><strong>Diversity & Exploration:</strong> Introduces randomness, potentially leading to better generalization and robustness by exploring different expert combinations.</li></ul></li><li><strong>Pros:</strong> Better load balancing, prevents expert starvation, encourages exploration.</li><li><strong>Cons:</strong> Stochastic (non-deterministic routing), can make debugging harder, might not pick the absolute “best” expert in a single instance (but better for long-term training).</li></ul><p><strong>Key Takeaway:</strong> While deterministic Top-K is simpler and directly picks the “highest-scoring” experts, sampling from the softmax offers a more robust training dynamic by ensuring that all experts receive training data, thereby preventing some experts from becoming unused (“dead experts”).</p><hr></div><footer></footer></article></section></div><footer class=footer><section class=container>©
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The <strong>Top-K routing</strong> mechanism, as illustrated in the provided image, is a core component in many modern Mixture-of-Experts (MoE) models. It involves selecting a fixed number (<code>K</code>) of experts for each input based on relevance scores.</p><hr><p><strong>Traditional Top-K (Deterministic Selection):</strong></p><ul><li><strong>How it works:</strong><ol><li>Calculate relevance scores (<code>s_{i,t}</code>) for each expert <code>i</code> and input <code>t</code>.</li><li>Identify the <code>K</code> experts with the highest scores.</li><li>Experts <em>within</em> the Top-K are assigned their scores (<code>g_{i,t} = s_{i,t}</code>).</li><li>Experts <em>outside</em> the Top-K are assigned a score of <code>0</code> (<code>g_{i,t} = 0</code>).</li><li>The output is a weighted sum of the selected experts’ outputs.</li></ol></li><li><strong>Pros:</strong> Predictable, deterministic, selects the “best” experts based on current scores.</li><li><strong>Cons:</strong> Can lead to expert imbalance, where a few popular experts are always chosen, starving others of training.</li></ul><p><strong>Alternative: Sampling from Softmax (Probabilistic Selection):</strong></p><ul><li><strong>How it works:</strong><ol><li>Calculate relevance scores (<code>s_{i,t}</code>) which are treated as probabilities (after softmax).</li><li><strong>Randomly sample</strong> <code>K</code> unique expert indices from the distribution defined by these probabilities.</li><li>Selected experts contribute; unselected experts do not.</li></ol></li><li><strong>Why it’s suggested:</strong><ul><li><strong>Load Balancing:</strong> Prevents expert collapse by ensuring all experts get a chance to be selected, even those with slightly lower scores. This promotes more even training across the entire expert pool.</li><li><strong>Diversity & Exploration:</strong> Introduces randomness, potentially leading to better generalization and robustness by exploring different expert combinations.</li></ul></li><li><strong>Pros:</strong> Better load balancing, prevents expert starvation, encourages exploration.</li><li><strong>Cons:</strong> Stochastic (non-deterministic routing), can make debugging harder, might not pick the absolute “best” expert in a single instance (but better for long-term training).</li></ul><p><strong>Key Takeaway:</strong> While deterministic Top-K is simpler and directly picks the “highest-scoring” experts, sampling from the softmax offers a more robust training dynamic by ensuring that all experts receive training data, thereby preventing some experts from becoming unused (“dead experts”).</p><hr></div><footer><div id=disqus_thread></div><script>window.disqus_config=function(){},function(){if(["localhost","127.0.0.1"].indexOf(window.location.hostname)!=-1){document.getElementById("disqus_thread").innerHTML="Disqus comments not available by default when the website is previewed locally.";return}var t=document,e=t.createElement("script");e.async=!0,e.src="//ericxliu-me.disqus.com/embed.js",e.setAttribute("data-timestamp",+new Date),(t.head||t.body).appendChild(e)}(),document.addEventListener("themeChanged",function(){document.readyState=="complete"&&DISQUS.reset({reload:!0,config:disqus_config})})</script></footer></article></section></div><footer class=footer><section class=container>©
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Eric X. Liu
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<!doctype html><html lang=en><head><title>An Architectural Deep Dive of T5 · Eric X. Liu's Personal Page</title><meta charset=utf-8><meta name=viewport content="width=device-width,initial-scale=1"><meta name=color-scheme content="light dark"><meta name=author content="Eric X. Liu"><meta name=description content="In the rapidly evolving landscape of Large Language Models, a few key architectures define the dominant paradigms. Today, the “decoder-only” model, popularized by the GPT series and its successors like LLaMA and Mistral, reigns supreme. These models are scaled to incredible sizes and excel at in-context learning.
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But to truly understand the field, we must look at the pivotal models that explored different paths. Google’s T5, or Text-to-Text Transfer Transformer, stands out as one of the most influential. It didn’t just introduce a new model; it proposed a new philosophy. This article dives deep into the architecture of T5, how it fundamentally differs from modern LLMs, and the lasting legacy of its unique design choices."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=fediverse:creator content><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="An Architectural Deep Dive of T5"><meta name=twitter:description content="In the rapidly evolving landscape of Large Language Models, a few key architectures define the dominant paradigms. Today, the “decoder-only” model, popularized by the GPT series and its successors like LLaMA and Mistral, reigns supreme. These models are scaled to incredible sizes and excel at in-context learning.
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But to truly understand the field, we must look at the pivotal models that explored different paths. Google’s T5, or Text-to-Text Transfer Transformer, stands out as one of the most influential. It didn’t just introduce a new model; it proposed a new philosophy. This article dives deep into the architecture of T5, how it fundamentally differs from modern LLMs, and the lasting legacy of its unique design choices."><meta name=keywords content="software engineer,performance engineering,Google engineer,tech blog,software development,performance optimization,Eric Liu,engineering blog,mountain biking,Jeep enthusiast,overlanding,camping,outdoor adventures"><meta name=twitter:card content="summary"><meta name=twitter:title content="An Architectural Deep Dive of T5"><meta name=twitter:description content="In the rapidly evolving landscape of Large Language Models, a few key architectures define the dominant paradigms. Today, the “decoder-only” model, popularized by the GPT series and its successors like LLaMA and Mistral, reigns supreme. These models are scaled to incredible sizes and excel at in-context learning.
|
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But to truly understand the field, we must look at the pivotal models that explored different paths. Google’s T5, or Text-to-Text Transfer Transformer, stands out as one of the most influential. It didn’t just introduce a new model; it proposed a new philosophy. This article dives deep into the architecture of T5, how it fundamentally differs from modern LLMs, and the lasting legacy of its unique design choices."><meta property="og:url" content="/posts/t5-the-transformer-that-zigged-when-others-zagged-an-architectural-deep-dive/"><meta property="og:site_name" content="Eric X. Liu's Personal Page"><meta property="og:title" content="An Architectural Deep Dive of T5"><meta property="og:description" content="In the rapidly evolving landscape of Large Language Models, a few key architectures define the dominant paradigms. Today, the “decoder-only” model, popularized by the GPT series and its successors like LLaMA and Mistral, reigns supreme. These models are scaled to incredible sizes and excel at in-context learning.
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But to truly understand the field, we must look at the pivotal models that explored different paths. Google’s T5, or Text-to-Text Transfer Transformer, stands out as one of the most influential. It didn’t just introduce a new model; it proposed a new philosophy. This article dives deep into the architecture of T5, how it fundamentally differs from modern LLMs, and the lasting legacy of its unique design choices."><meta property="og:locale" content="en"><meta property="og:type" content="article"><meta property="article:section" content="posts"><meta property="article:published_time" content="2025-06-01T00:00:00+00:00"><meta property="article:modified_time" content="2025-08-03T03:41:10+00:00"><link rel=canonical href=/posts/t5-the-transformer-that-zigged-when-others-zagged-an-architectural-deep-dive/><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-brands-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-regular-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-solid-900.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder.min.60f552a2c0452fcc0254c54f21c3e0728460c1ae85f97a9c35833a222ef8b884.css integrity="sha256-YPVSosBFL8wCVMVPIcPgcoRgwa6F+XqcNYM6Ii74uIQ=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder-dark.min.a00e6364bacbc8266ad1cc81230774a1397198f8cfb7bcba29b7d6fcb54ce57f.css integrity="sha256-oA5jZLrLyCZq0cyBIwd0oTlxmPjPt7y6KbfW/LVM5X8=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=icon type=image/svg+xml href=/images/favicon.svg sizes=any><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-32x32.png sizes=32x32><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-16x16.png sizes=16x16><link rel=apple-touch-icon href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=apple-touch-icon sizes=180x180 href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=manifest href=/site.webmanifest><link rel=mask-icon href=/images/safari-pinned-tab.svg color=#5bbad5></head><body class="preload-transitions colorscheme-auto"><div class=float-container><a id=dark-mode-toggle class=colorscheme-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-adjust fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></a></div><main class=wrapper><nav class=navigation><section class=container><a class=navigation-title href=/>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page
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But to truly understand the field, we must look at the pivotal models that explored different paths. Google’s T5, or Text-to-Text Transfer Transformer, stands out as one of the most influential. It didn’t just introduce a new model; it proposed a new philosophy. This article dives deep into the architecture of T5, how it fundamentally differs from modern LLMs, and the lasting legacy of its unique design choices."><meta property="og:locale" content="en"><meta property="og:type" content="article"><meta property="article:section" content="posts"><meta property="article:published_time" content="2025-06-01T00:00:00+00:00"><meta property="article:modified_time" content="2025-08-03T03:41:10+00:00"><link rel=canonical href=/posts/t5-the-transformer-that-zigged-when-others-zagged-an-architectural-deep-dive/><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-brands-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-regular-400.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=preload href=/fonts/fa-solid-900.woff2 as=font type=font/woff2 crossorigin><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder.min.6445a802b9389c9660e1b07b724dcf5718b1065ed2d71b4eeaf981cc7cc5fc46.css integrity="sha256-ZEWoArk4nJZg4bB7ck3PVxixBl7S1xtO6vmBzHzF/EY=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=stylesheet href=/css/coder-dark.min.a00e6364bacbc8266ad1cc81230774a1397198f8cfb7bcba29b7d6fcb54ce57f.css integrity="sha256-oA5jZLrLyCZq0cyBIwd0oTlxmPjPt7y6KbfW/LVM5X8=" crossorigin=anonymous media=screen><link rel=icon type=image/svg+xml href=/images/favicon.svg sizes=any><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-32x32.png sizes=32x32><link rel=icon type=image/png href=/images/favicon-16x16.png sizes=16x16><link rel=apple-touch-icon href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=apple-touch-icon sizes=180x180 href=/images/apple-touch-icon.png><link rel=manifest href=/site.webmanifest><link rel=mask-icon href=/images/safari-pinned-tab.svg color=#5bbad5></head><body class="preload-transitions colorscheme-auto"><div class=float-container><a id=dark-mode-toggle class=colorscheme-toggle><i class="fa-solid fa-adjust fa-fw" aria-hidden=true></i></a></div><main class=wrapper><nav class=navigation><section class=container><a class=navigation-title href=/>Eric X. Liu's Personal Page
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<time datetime=2025-06-01T00:00:00Z>June 1, 2025
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@@ -26,8 +26,8 @@ But to truly understand the field, we must look at the pivotal models that explo
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<a class=heading-link href=#where-t5-was-ahead-of-its-time><i class="fa-solid fa-link" aria-hidden=true title="Link to heading"></i>
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<span class=sr-only>Link to heading</span></a></h3><p>Despite its differences, the “T5 v1.1” variant pioneered several techniques that are now standard practice in the most advanced LLMs:</p><ul><li><strong>RMSNorm:</strong> It was one of the first major models to adopt Root Mean Square Normalization instead of LayerNorm, a choice now used by LLaMA, Mistral, and others for its efficiency and stability.</li><li><strong>Pre-Normalization:</strong> T5 applies the normalization layer <em>before</em> the attention and FFN blocks, a critical technique for enabling stable training of very deep networks.</li><li><strong>No Bias Terms:</strong> T5 v1.1 removed the bias parameters from its normalization and FFN layers, a small but important optimization for memory and stability that modern models follow.</li><li><strong>Gated Activations (GeGLU):</strong> While the original T5 used ReLU, T5 v1.1 adopted a Gated Linear Unit (GeGLU), presaging the move to GLU-family activations (like SwiGLU) that is now ubiquitous.</li></ul><h3 id=conclusion-the-lasting-legacy>Conclusion: The Lasting Legacy
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<span class=sr-only>Link to heading</span></a></h3><p>T5 represents a different evolutionary branch in the Transformer family tree. While the field has largely converged on the decoder-only architecture for its scalability in general-purpose models, T5’s design remains a masterclass in purpose-built engineering.</p><p>Its text-to-text framework was revolutionary, its encoder-decoder structure is still a go-to for tasks like translation, and its refined T5 v1.1 architecture laid the groundwork for many of the stability and efficiency tricks we see in today’s state-of-the-art models. T5 is more than just a model; it’s a crucial case study in the architectural trade-offs that continue to shape the future of artificial intelligence.</p></div><footer><div id=disqus_thread></div><script>window.disqus_config=function(){},function(){if(["localhost","127.0.0.1"].indexOf(window.location.hostname)!=-1){document.getElementById("disqus_thread").innerHTML="Disqus comments not available by default when the website is previewed locally.";return}var t=document,e=t.createElement("script");e.async=!0,e.src="//ericxliu-me.disqus.com/embed.js",e.setAttribute("data-timestamp",+new Date),(t.head||t.body).appendChild(e)}(),document.addEventListener("themeChanged",function(){document.readyState=="complete"&&DISQUS.reset({reload:!0,config:disqus_config})})</script></footer></article></section></div><footer class=footer><section class=container>©
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